A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

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A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Xiar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:49 am

Here is my interpretation on how they would have made an anti-space-ship torpedo in the
1980's. Its a very simple design, but their are a lot of parts to consider. Please click the
thumbnail below to get a better view.

Before I explain further, blue indicates gunpowder while orange indicates the containers
holding the nucular warhead & focus the nucular blast.

The torpedo is made up of an iron shell and 4 containers that hold and detonate the nucular
material. The propulsion works similar to how an Orion spacecraft would work, it releases
one of the containers which detonates shortly thereafter creating a huge
amount of force and thus speeds up the projectile significantly.

This projectile would work in the following way:
1. Your spaceship has to face enemy spaceship.
2. You initially start the torpedo by exploding a large gunpowder charge behind it.
* You want the projectile as far away as possible before it starts using its nucular payload
3. A chip inside the torpedo will ignite the gunpowder charge and set off a fuse in the container
4. Gasses from the gunpowder force the initial container out the rocket, once the fuse in that container reaches the end it detonates the nuke.
5. Repeat steps 3 & 4 for the second container.
6. Repeat steps 3 & 4 for third container.
7. The last nuke can also use the nuke to speed up the projectile, but it could also be used to give a proximity effect to the weapon.

Image

Of course, by adding radar maybe a carbon dioxide tank with a few directional nozzle. It would be possible to program a TR32000
to give it a much greater accuracy.

What makes this weapon so great is that it has a very effective way to significantly increase its speed. Any spaceship hit by this weapon
is more or less totaled and the crew most likely dead.

Secondly, I do not believe its wise to include gravity generators for at least the first part of the game. Firstly, they feel cheap and their is
no way people in 1980's were able to come up with such advanced technology. My suggestion is focus on magnetic boots instead, they already
exist and it allows players to walk on the exterior of their space craft as well as inside. Additionally, non-magnetic materials could be used to try and
hinder enemy units invading your ship helping to add a bit of strategy.
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Zardoz » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:42 am

Xiar wrote:The torpedo is made up of an iron shell and 4 containers that hold and detonate the nucular
material. The propulsion works similar to how an Orion spacecraft would work, it releases
one of the containers which detonates shortly thereafter creating a huge
amount of force and thus speeds up the projectile significantly.


Not have sense for something too small. Put a simple liquid fuel rocket engine that can be power on/off when is necessary. Orion engine works because the ship is big and have a "shield" that protects and absorbs explosion force.

Xiar wrote:Gasses from the gunpowder force the initial container out the rocket, once the fuse in that container reaches the end it detonates the nuke.

Even in WW2 was proximity fuses...

Xiar wrote:Of course, by adding radar maybe a carbon dioxide tank with a few directional nozzle. It would be possible to program a TR32000
to give it a much greater accuracy.

Why ? Maverick, Tomahawk and other anti-ship / anti-ground or long range missiles in the 70's and 80's had a specialized computer inside to navigation and control. I don't find interesting the idea of reducing how many computer / ships we can have, because we hare putting virtual computer in the torpedoes. We should simply the make it enough intelligent to track a target and nothing more... not put a whole virtual computer!

Xiar wrote:What makes this weapon so great is that it has a very effective way to significantly increase its speed. Any spaceship hit by this weapon
is more or less totaled and the crew most likely dead.

Not necessary. Any blast in space it's very inefficient. To be effective, the warhead must penetrate ship armour and explode inside of the ship, so the blast not goes to empty space doing nothing. And for doing this, not is necessary to be nuclear. A chemical classical war head in a missile of the size of a Tomahawk can make enough damage to disable or destroy a ship of the sizes that we are talking (Firefly, Millennium Falcon, etc...). The hard part is reaching the target without being destroyed by PD weapons and carry enough momentum to penetrate the armour (aka, have a min operational range).
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Xiar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:17 am

Not have sense for something too small. Put a simple liquid fuel rocket engine that can be power on/off when is necessary. Orion engine works because the ship is big and have a "shield" that protects and absorbs explosion force.


I do agree that the general design might require extra weight in the back to function properly, but the reason I came up with this design was due to how slow rockets are in space.
The fact is using a conventional missile would take forever to reach the enemy ship, the reason I decided to go this route was due to the high speeds the orion can fly at (50% to 80%
the speed of light). Assuming an enemy spacecraft is 186282 miles away, this device assuming your able to get it 50% speed of light (using large nucular bombs and accounting for its
significantly lighter mass compared to orion, and the fact their is no crew meaning it could be much closer to the explosion + 4 bombs, it could be very possible). Is around 2 seconds (+3-5 sec for speedup).
Assuming we go with a mach 10 missile with a 7700 mph acceleration would take ~7 hours to reach that same distance and that's assuming the engine was running at full burn the entire time.

Additionally the pusher plate existed more to absorb the explosion into springs. This was meant to kept the crew alive during the explosions initial shock-wave, but was completely unnecessary if the vehicle was unmanned.


Why ? Maverick, Tomahawk and other anti-ship / anti-ground or long range missiles in the 70's and 80's had a specialized computer inside to navigation and control. I don't find interesting the idea of reducing how many computer / ships we can have, because we hare putting virtual computer in the torpedoes. We should simply the make it enough intelligent to track a target and nothing more... not put a whole virtual computer!


Makes complete sense, saves time programming.

Not necessary. Any blast in space it's very inefficient. To be effective, the warhead must penetrate ship armour and explode inside of the ship, so the blast not goes to empty space doing nothing. And for doing this, not is necessary to be nuclear. A chemical classical war head in a missile of the size of a Tomahawk can make enough damage to disable or destroy a ship of the sizes that we are talking (Firefly, Millennium Falcon, etc...). The hard part is reaching the target without being destroyed by PD weapons and carry enough momentum to penetrate the armour (aka, have a min operational range).


I was more or less referring to a direct hit, not an explosive one. . Another idea is to put a smaller explosive at the tip of the rocket to fragment the steel shell. make it more like a shotgun blast except with pellets going at a MUCH MUCH faster speed.
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Zardoz » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:47 pm

Xiar wrote:
I do agree that the general design might require extra weight in the back to function properly, but the reason I came up with this design was due to how slow rockets are in space.
The fact is using a conventional missile would take forever to reach the enemy ship, the reason I decided to go this route was due to the high speeds the orion can fly at (50% to 80%
the speed of light). Assuming an enemy spacecraft is 186282 miles away, this device assuming your able to get it 50% speed of light (using large nucular bombs and accounting for its
significantly lighter mass compared to orion, and the fact their is no crew meaning it could be much closer to the explosion + 4 bombs, it could be very possible). Is around 2 seconds (+3-5 sec for speedup).
Assuming we go with a mach 10 missile with a 7700 mph acceleration would take ~7 hours to reach that same distance and that's assuming the engine was running at full burn the entire time.

Additionally the pusher plate existed more to absorb the explosion into springs. This was meant to kept the crew alive during the explosions initial shock-wave, but was completely unnecessary if the vehicle was unmanned.


Were you grab these numbers ?

First your are talking about firing a torpedo against a target at a distance similar to Earth-Moon distance !!!! I think that will get fights in a much more small volume, like or less that 1000 Km³ volume (with a max far distance of ~1732 Km), were your mach 10 missile can travel it in ~ 8 minutes. Plus, from were you got that an Orion engine will accelerate any object to 50% light speed with only four explosions ? As I far I know, they need a lot more detonations to get an appreciable light speed fraction.

Also, from were you got that a space missile will be limited to Mach 10 ? There is not friction, so could reach higher speeds, plus a ICBM can reach more that Mach 10 in launch!. The only limitation is that a engine gets worst performance when his speed becomes similar to the expelled gas speed, and carry enough fuel.

Plus your torpedo, will too pretty visible. Any anti-torpedo defence will have too easy to see it and fire against it before comes too near.
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Xiar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:08 pm

Zardoz wrote:Were you grab these numbers ?

First your are talking about firing a torpedo against a target at a distance similar to Earth-Moon distance !!!! I think that will get fights in a much more small volume, like or less that 1000 Km³ volume (with a max far distance of ~1732 Km), were your mach 10 missile can travel it in ~ 8 minutes. Plus, from were you got that an Orion engine will accelerate any object to 50% light speed with only four explosions ? As I far I know, they need a lot more detonations to get an appreciable light speed fraction.


For the first part of your question, I can definitely see programming the fights to be over a smaller space. So if thats
the route you programmers wish to take, that's your choice.

However the second part the reason the orion required a lot more explosions was due to having human occupants. Remember at max a human can survive 70g peak acceleration (686 m/s^2). This is an automated system and is thus not under those restrictions, thus it can be much closer to the nuke when it goes off and thus go at a much much faster speed. Throw it that it is much lighter the the orion (orion was usually in the thousands to millions of tons, this device would easily be in the 10's of tons) and it makes sense that it will have a much, much greater speed.



Zardoz wrote:Also, from were you got that a space missile will be limited to Mach 10 ? There is not friction, so could reach higher speeds, plus a ICBM can reach more that Mach 10 in launch!. The only limitation is that a engine gets worst performance when his speed becomes similar to the expelled gas speed, and carry enough fuel.

Plus your torpedo, will too pretty visible. Any anti-torpedo defence will have too easy to see it and fire against it before comes too near.


I already accounted for additional acceleration. I used the acceleration equation d = sqrt((speed*time^2)/2) to determine the time it takes to reach that distance assuming it was accelerating at a mach 10 speeds (this also takes into account a friction-less environment). If the projectile was accelerating the entire way at mach 10 (7700 mph) it will take it 7 hours to reach the target about 1 light second away. And since the missile wouldn't have enough fuel to accelerate that long we can guess it would take much longer.

Lastly 5-7 seconds isnt a lot of time, and the fact that by destroying it might have made the situation worse since you might now be facing shrapnel flying at relativistic speeds.
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Yowen » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:14 pm

3. A chip inside the torpedo will ignite the gunpowder charge and set off a fuse in the container

Doesn't gunpowder need oxygen to explode?
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Xiar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:21 pm

Yowen wrote:
3. A chip inside the torpedo will ignite the gunpowder charge and set off a fuse in the container

Doesn't gunpowder need oxygen to explode?


No, gunpowder and many other explosives has an oxidizer
inside its makeup. This allows it to burn even if there is no oxygen to speak of.
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Zardoz » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:00 pm

Xiar wrote:I already accounted for additional acceleration. I used the acceleration equation d = sqrt((speed*time^2)/2) to determine the time it takes to reach that distance assuming it was accelerating at a mach 10 speeds (this also takes into account a friction-less environment). If the projectile was accelerating the entire way at mach 10 (7700 mph) it will take it 7 hours to reach the target about 1 light second away. And since the missile wouldn't have enough fuel to accelerate that long we can guess it would take much longer.

Lastly 5-7 seconds isnt a lot of time, and the fact that by destroying it might have made the situation worse since you might now be facing shrapnel flying at relativistic speeds.

Image
Also, "mach 10" is Speed, not acceleration.
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby Xiar » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:05 pm

yup, i used the last equation on that list, d = 1/2(a*t^2).
i had to modify it to sqrt((d*2)/a) to calculate the time it would take to travel one light-second,
so sorry about borking the equation above, i can get a little flustered at times. The saddest part
was that I was originally a physics major, so i'm kicking myself for miss-writing the equation :(

And yes your correct mach 10 isnt acceleration, but I was doing my best
to make sure the scenario was completely in your favor before i crushed it
with reality :P

Its been quite an intensive conversation, its safe to say we both got some lumps.
What do you think of this idea now after our long discussion?
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Re: A 1980's anti-ship torpedo & Magnetic Boots

Postby DaveSparhawk » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:32 am

I definitely like the idea of rocket propelled explosive or impact weapons. I'm not sure what sort of guidence or counter measures we will end up with.

I would like to say that I understand mach 10 to be ten times speed of sound. The speed of sound is not constant in an atmosphere or valid in near vacume.

I love the design input and don't want to quash your efforts, keep up the good work.

edit:
as for magnetic boots, what about Velcro? It's lighter and has a real nifty sound when you walk on the ceiling.
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